Taylor: Welcome to Transforming Energy: The NREL Podcast, brought to you by the U.S. Department of Energy’s National Renewable Energy Laboratory. It’s Monday, April 22. I’m Taylor Mankle.
Kerrin: And I’m Kerrin Jeromin. Happy Earth Day Taylor!
Taylor: Happy Earth Day indeed! Always such a special holiday around NREL as we get to think even more about how our work impacts the amazing planet we call home.
Kerrin: Yes, we’re coming to you on this special day with an episode of our Lab Notes series to take a deeper dive into an incredibly interesting section of research happening at the lab. That being plastics.
Taylor: That’s right Kerrin, we have the pleasure of chatting with two incredible NRELians today from our polymer science and chemical engineering spaces to help us better understand how NREL is involved in solving our world’s plastics problem.
Kerrin: And when we talk about the “plastics problem” we’re referring to the billions of tons of discarded plastic that are never properly recycled and may end up in our landfills or environment.
Taylor: During our conversations today you’ll hear how NREL and our partners are working on solutions to change the way we recycle, reuse, and utilize materials with better end-of-life opportunities.
Kerrin: I’m so excited to get into these conversations and give you all an in-depth picture of how NREL is impacting the future of plastics. So, let’s not delay it any more and bring in our special guests.
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Kerrin: OK, welcome to the show! Please introduce yourself to the audience.
Nic: So my name's Nic Rorrer, I use he/him pronouns, and I have the privilege of being a senior researcher and group manager here at NREL. Specifically I work on polymer science and engineering. So polymers are kind of a fancy way of saying plastics, and I get to work with that interdisciplinary team trying to work on making plastics for tomorrow effectively.
Taylor: My first question goes right in line with that. It's a big one on purpose. But, you know, why should we as a whole care about plastics impacting and being a part of our landfills and environment?
Nic: Yeah, I mean, I think when we look at it like not all plastics end up in the environment, but they may end up in the landfill or something else somehow. And the impact like honestly isn't that well known. We know there's a bunch of plastics. We often see, you know, the pictures of turtles or we now read that we have a credit card of microplastics that we eat every year or month. I can't remember the actual timeline off the top of my head, but we don't fully know those effects. And so, like, obviously there's probably a human health concern when it comes to plastics in the environment, entering our bodies, so on and so forth. But there's also just a lost opportunity by having plastics leak into the environment. We have a lost economic opportunity to reuse those materials. We have a lost opportunity to make manufacturing more efficient by reusing materials, have it emit less GHG emissions, being greenhouse gas emissions or CO2 in this case, so on and so forth. So I mean, really, plastics leak into the environment is a lost opportunity, if nothing else.
Taylor: Yeah, I love how you phrase those as lost opportunities. And of course we hear a lot about the negatives that come with plastics. But when I hear you talk, I get a little bit of a different feeling. Tell me about how you see plastics in our world.
Nic: Yeah. And so if you think about my own journey, and I'm sure we'll probably touch on this later, but I very much when I was choosing to do my Ph.D. studies, I was between doing solar research or like plastics, and I chose plastics because as we talked about, they are in every facet of modern life. But when I look at plastics themselves, like, yes, there's issues with them today, and I'm not going to say there's not, but there's also just this tremendous opportunity. Plastics themselves or the ones we use today are mostly organic. So there's that opportunity that we can actually start making these materials from bioderived resources or biomass or waste. Like kind of to me with plastics, and then when I often think about it, I think there's this opportunity to have rags to riches. We just have to be with all science, but with science especially in the case of polymers or plastics, we have to be intentional about what we're thinking about for our future. So like we have the opportunity now as scientists to redesign and rethink the way we work with these materials. So we have the opportunity to make sure that they can degrade into benign materials in the environment. We have the opportunity to redesign them to be easier to recycle or better to recycle and make them from biomass so that really we can make everything just more efficient and better for society at the end of the day.
Kerrin: Those opportunities you speak of are so exciting to think about and one of the places we see that in practice is something called the BOTTLE Consortium, tell us about that.
Nic: So BOTTLE’s acronym is Bio-Optimized Technologies to keep Thermoplastics out of Landfills and the Environment. Not every letter of that is represented in BOTTLE, but you know, we get most of them. And really at the end of the day, what I would say BOTTLE is aiming to do is to take today's plastics and convert them to tomorrow's materials that are ideally better for society and still accessible.
Taylor: Well said, and in terms of NREL’s place within BOTTLE, where do we fit?
Nic: So with BOTTLE itself, NREL is the lead lab and so we help coordinate all those efforts. We help coordinate all those efforts across just all over multiple partner labs. And a lot of the work we do at NREL, I would say, is more on that kind of catalysis side or finding the triggers that we need to help convert today's plastics into building blocks that other members of our teams may use.
Taylor: I see.
Nic: So like teams maybe at Colorado State University led by Eugene Chen, where they're trying to make more of these circular recyclable by design plastics, or teams like at Oak Ridge National Lab that are trying to help us design the metabolic pathways to make those materials that we need, or teams at Northwestern who are helping us try to understand all these pathways and the mechanisms that lead to all these things. So NREL is the lead lab. I wouldn't say we sit at the center of this because it's a very much integrated team, but we are the lead lab here. And I think finally the thing that NREL brings to the BOTTLE Consortium within the day is what we're kind of known for, for bringing to a lot of projects. And it's analysis. A lot of the work at NREL and a lot of the work within the BOTTLE Consortium is analysis-driven research and development. So we are always making sure that we are going back to the books, if you will, to understand what technologies are going to have the greatest impact, what technologies are going to be the most feasible to scale, what is the cost of these technologies going to be? And even helping us make decisions because analysis can say like, “Hey, yeah, we have 15 different chemistries for tackling this problem. Maybe this is your best chemistry, but actually the real issue you need to fix is nothing to do with the chemistry at this point, but you really have to figure out how to separate out these materials or how to get higher loadings or more stuff into your reactor.” So we are definitely the analysis lab, which kind of helps drives a lot of those discussions.
Kerrin: One of the beauties of BOTTLE seems to be its partnerships with industry and connecting this work to real-world solutions. What benefits do you see from these partnerships?
Nic: We have a lot of these partnerships to one, understand the science and what we're doing, but two to make sure we can actually translate this into a solution that's going to work for the lack of a better term, quote-y fingers, “real world” itself, because it's just crazy being a polymer science researcher. Some of the things we learn, like you talk to companies and they're like, “Well, this is actually our issue or this is the thing we care about.” It's something that we might not think about in our textbook knowledge. If you ever go to anyone who makes clothing or textiles, they will have these things that honestly look like medieval torture devices that are used to test clothing, which is not something that I easily measure in a lab with all my black boxes. So, it's really about making sure the technology solutions we develop are one still applicable, and two are actually better.
Taylor: And before we transition to our second guest for today’s episode that will speak more to those industry partnerships, I’d love to ask you about another large part of your involvement with BOTTLE as the lead on diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility. Why do you find those efforts foundational to this work?
Nic: If we can't have a technology that actually is translatable to the average person, it is not something that is going to change the world. And in fact, we have to make sure our technologies are not further harming underrepresented groups or disadvantaged communities where we might go build these first plants, right? Because if we have something that's going to create more health risks, at the end of the day, we don't want to put that technology out there. We want to make sure that we are being good stewards of the environment, of our resources, of all that good stuff. So like to some extent it is at the key of the work we do is to make sure that our technologies are that kind of A word in this: accessible, right? We have to make sure that they are accessible, that they can get to the average person themselves. And so I think like that is why is so key to the BOTTLE Consortium. And the other parts are like, you know, I started off this interview by saying, I'm the group's senior researcher and group manager for polymer science and engineering. No one knows what polymers are unless you work in them. And so, like, accessibility also kind of has a different side to that too, of making sure that like people understand what we're doing.
Kerrin: That’s exactly what you’re doing. Thank you for helping us understand as well as our listeners. As we wrap up this conversation Nic I’d love to close on a big question: What is needed to solve this quote/end quote plastics problem?
Nic: We definitely need time and resources, right? Like we need time to develop these solutions and move them forward. And it's kind of, I think, a lot back to, you know, we all most of us have the experience of going through the pandemic and thinking about vaccine development, right?
Taylor: Right.
Nic: It didn't happen overnight. They got it done pretty quickly as far as science standards goes, and those scientists should be admired for the hard work that they did. But for me, like it's going to take time and effort. And I often think about, you know, plastics. And there's been a lot of reports that are well researched and rightfully written, but saying, “Hey, like they weren't as recyclable initially,” or all those things. But when you look at us starting to implement, reuse, reduce recycle programs, you do actually see that there was a step-change effect made. And when you look at, you know, that data like, yes, that got us from 0% to 15%, which 15% seems small, but it's infinitely larger than 0%. And when you look at the amount of work that's being done in the space, back when I finished my Ph.D. in 2015 and started at NREL, it was minimal, but if you look at the citations and the literature, it's been explosive growth since then. It's something that people are excited about. It's something that people want to do. And so I think like, it's going to take partnership all across the spectrum from, you know, working with companies to working with people who make the materials, with the companies, to working with the average consumer. It's going to take a little bit of time. But I will actually say, like I'm naturally a pessimist, but I'm optimistic that we're going in the right direction on these issues and these concerns.
Taylor: Nic Rorrer, thank you so much for your time and thoughtful conversation. We look forward to hearing much more from you and your team in the future. And speaking of talking with more of the team, we’ll be chatting about industry partnership and the future of recycling plastics with our next guest in just a moment.
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Kerrin: Now, we’re joined by Julia Curley. Julia is a postdoctoral researcher here at NREL. Even in Julia’s short time with the lab, her work is already making a difference in the conversation and action on the future of plastics. Julia welcome, and please tell us about your journey to NREL.
Julia: Yeah, well, journey is the right word for it. So, I did my Ph.D. in chemistry at Yale, and as I was finishing up and thinking about next steps, I was thinking about how I really enjoyed the research I was doing. But it all felt very, very fundamental, very basic. And I realized that the research was just, never had any commercial potential. And not that that's, you know, everything, but I really wanted to be involved in research that I felt could make a difference. So, I loved all of the research going on at NREL. And well, I mean, I was I've been interested in sustainability since a young age, and I really wanted to use my chemistry to advance sustainability. And obviously NREL is the perfect place for that. So, I got connected with a group that works on plastics recycling. And three years later, here I am.
Kerrin: Here you are! Okay, so let’s talk about the plastics problem and the role you play with NREL to find solutions.
Julia: What I always like to frame it as is that the plastics problem is an energy problem. The production of plastics that end up in the landfill represents a massive waste of energy and valuable materials that actually contribute more to global emissions every year than the entire aviation sector. And so if we can make plastics more circular and more sustainable, we're saving energy as well.
Taylor: I love that answer. And you mentioned a great buzzword, circular. Define that for me. What is a circular plastic? What would that look like?
Julia: Yeah, of course. So what we say right now is that we're in kind of a linear plastics economy. So from the start to the end of a plastic’s life is a linear process. You take your raw materials, you generate the plastic you're going to use, you know, soda bottle, say, and then you use that soda bottle, and unfortunately, a lot of those end up in the landfill and that's the end of it. What we imagine for a circular plastics economy, you know, at the end of the material’s lifetime, when you're done with your soda bottle or whatever other plastic item, that goes into the recycling and it gets turned into another material that can then be recycled again and again, continuing the circle.
Kerrin: That would be so amazing because I know for me, I really do have a love-hate relationship with plastic. I hate seeing it in parks and my local waterways, but yet it’s kind of an essential part of our world today.
Julia: Yes, definitely. A lot of people and corporations are getting scared of the word plastics because of the bad reputation that they have. And they're seen as unsustainable and they're seen as, you know, bad for the environment. But that doesn't have to be true. There are lots of plastics that are already recyclable, and there's tons of amazing research going into making more materials recyclable that are plastic. And they're such a useful material. They can be customized to basically any application that you need. They're very lightweight, which saves a huge amount on shipping compared to something like glass, let's say. And so there's just there's so many benefits to plastics and they're so involved in all parts of our lives that I don't think we can really get away from them any time soon. And focusing on making them more sustainable is a more achievable goal.
Kerrin: And that is a big part of your work with NREL, is not only finding solutions for better or more sustainable plastics, but also to find out how to get them into the world through partnerships. What projects have you been involved with?
Julia: I've been lucky enough to contribute to a few different projects within BOTTLE, mostly working with industry to try and find, you know, techniques for recycling plastics that are scalable and practical and could be really adopted at an industry level. So right now my biggest project is working with Amazon, who's trying to make their Amazon Prime mailers that I'm sure everybody is very familiar with, those blue and white envelopes, trying to take those from, you know, what they're what they are now, which is not really circular to a more bio based and circular plastic.
Taylor: So, you know, take me into the lab a bit. What does that look like in practice in terms of working with a industry partner that is trying to achieve some, some of these goals?
Julia: It's really cool. It involves, you know, getting a lot of real-world samples. So Amazon has sent me a few different kind of up-and-coming plastic materials that they're researching for, for packaging, including some from Whole Foods, which you know, Amazon owns, like so I take compostable and biobased plastic packaging M&M’s, chip bags and you know when we're starting out a project we always start small, so just taking a couple ounces of material and testing it under different conditions to see if we can break it down and then remake new plastics you know, in order to really close that loop.
Taylor: Well said. And of course, a very exciting part of BOTTLE is what we've been talking about, these industry connections. Explain to our audience why those are important as a part of this work.
Julia: I think it's really important because as consumers, I think it's really easy to get disheartened by thinking, you know, “I'm only one person. How much of an impact can I really have?” And it's been really encouraging in BOTTLE to see the excitement and the engagement with industry. They're willing to, you know, invest a lot of money into this research in order to make their, you know, business models more sustainable. And so, I think setting that example and trying to, trying to push the plastics economy forward is really only possible when we have that industry engagement.
Kerrin: Speaking to the success of those industry connections, your current work is transforming into something more ... tell us about it!
Julia: Yes, so I'm very excited. The project that I've been working on with Amazon has, has been really promising. And, you know, people at Amazon and NREL and BOTTLE have all been really excited about its potential. So after I finish up my postdoc position here at NREL I am spinning out this technology into a startup company to try and increase the rates of plastics recycling, starting right here in Colorado.
Taylor: I love that. Let's hear a little bit more about it. Give us the brief pitch of this new startup, what it's called, what it'll be doing.
Julia: Yes. So the company is called EsterCycle. And what we aim for is circular bioplastics. So we want to be able to take the plastics that are made from plants and other biological sources and recycle them all together in a way that is circular and sustainable and reduces the emissions of the plastics industry.
Kerrin: This seems like such a perfect example as to how BOTTLE is working. Based on your experience, why would you encourage others to learn more or get involved with the efforts of BOTTLE?
Julia: I think one of the amazing things about BOTTLE and all the projects and the people is that we all really, truly care and we're all really trying to make a difference.
And it brings together, you know, individual with all different backgrounds, both scientifically and also in life and, you know, with a common goal. And I think that that makes a difference. I think, you know, the success of, of multiple projects and industry collaborations from BOTTLE shows that.
Taylor: And last but not least, you know, let's talk to those who may be driving to or from work maybe on the bus, maybe having a workout, doing chores around the house—speaking to them about plastics at large. What is the the overarching message that you would give to somebody listening to this?
Julia: That's a tough one. I think, you know, as I've said, it's easy to kind of get disheartened as an individual, you know, to think, “Why am I trying so hard to sort my recyclables when it's really a larger scale problem?” You know, it's the corporations, it's the companies. But, you know, your individual changes and improvements do make a difference. You know, your sorting, your recycling and, you know, reducing your single use plastic usage, all of those things drive larger societal change and I think really push us in the right direction. So don't be discouraged.
Kerrin: That’s good advice. Thank you so much Julia for the incredible insight into NREL’s work in plastics and some of the exciting industry connections that could change our relationship with recycling and plastics overall!
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Taylor: Wow Kerrin, I don’t know about you but I learned a ton about plastics and more importantly our relationship with them during these conversations.
Kerrin: Yeah, no kidding. You get such a unique and impactful perspective when you speak to researchers like Nic and Julia. They really helped me better understand NREL’s role in creating a better future where plastics could be used without the guilt so many of us feel.
Taylor: Right. Such a resonating message for us all of us on this Earth Day Lab Notes special. And we want to thank you all for tuning in!
Kerrin: As always let us know what other topics you’d like to hear more about! You can email us at podcast@nrel.gov and rate us five stars on your favorite podcast platform.
Taylor: Have a great Earth Day everyone!
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Kerrin: A very special thanks to our guests Nic Rorrer and Julia Curley for joining us for this episode. This episode was written by Kerrin Jeromin and Taylor Mankle. Our theme music is written and performed Chuck Kurnik, Jim Riley, and Mark Sanseverino, of Drift B-C and episode music by Ted Vaca. This podcast is produced by NREL’s Communications Office and recorded at the National Renewable Energy Laboratory in Colorado. We express our gratitude and acknowledge that the land we are on is the traditional and ancestral homelands of the Arapaho, Cheyenne, and Ute peoples. We recognize and pay respect to the Indigenous peoples from our past, present, and future, and are grateful to those who have been and continue to be stewards of this land.